Lorne Chapman
Posts:150
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| 06/27/2006 1:29 AM |
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PROPOSAL:
To amend the current Rule as follows:
Two primary sheet winches positioned on deck, forward of the mainsheet traveler with a drum diameter not exceeding 76mm in diameter.
CURRENT POSITION:
Two primary sheet winches positioned between the mainsheet traveler and the aft face of the forward end of the cockpit well. The two primary sheet winches shall not have a power ratio of more than 30:1.
REASON:
1) To remove restrictions on the location of hardware.
2) To remove antiquated wording because the final ratio is determined by the wench handle.
3) To maintain limitations on the size of primary wenches.
COMMENTS:
Recommended by Technical Committee.
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Roberto Luis Authier
Posts:1
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| 07/08/2006 9:02 AM |
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As per Harken's catalog 76 mm is the drum diameter for the B40 winch, the B32 drum size is 74mm and the B16 is 70 mm.
So, would we like to make legal a 40:1 winch? or just the 32:1 ? |
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David Ellis
Posts:5
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| 07/11/2006 10:59 AM |
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| There are two parts to this proposed amendment. The first deals with the position of the winch, and I'm not sure what it brings to the party, as all it does is allow the primary winch to be placed on the upper deck forward of the cockpit area in addition to it's current specified location...an unusual position. the second deals with the power ratio of the winch. Luis Authier's comments seem valid, what is the committee's response to them? |
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Doug Hosford
Posts:28
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| 07/18/2006 4:47 PM |
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| I like the change. A higher mechanical advantage allows more (or larger diameter) turns with less force to do the same job. The extra mechanical advantage allowed would be useful to crews with smaller trimmers (mostly women) who would be at less disadvantage to boats with a big trimmer and the standard winch. |
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J. Sean Brown
Posts:1
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| 07/20/2006 3:55 PM |
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| I oppose this change. Just think that allowing primaries onto the cabin house crosses the line that defines "one-design." |
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Chris McLaughlin
Posts:38
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| 07/21/2006 10:31 AM |
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Moving the Primaries seems an odd thing to do. it also puts weight higher up on the boat. Increasing to 40:1 makes sense if we are to encourage female and younger crews. Althoughthe Lopez block system circumvents this and will continue to demand the biggest trimmer possible! |
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Rodger Voss
Posts:36
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| 08/01/2006 7:52 PM |
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| My response is on behalf of 12 of the 23 polled Lake George - Fleet 24 members. The majority response is . . . to not change the rule. Discussion: Keep the primaries in their current position. |
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Ian Trotter
Posts:5
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| 08/29/2006 6:42 PM |
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| I say do not change it. Moving the winches is too big of a change in the deck layout. And the Harken 32 with the 8" handle is more than enough winch to get the job done. |
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Steven Hartman
Posts:9
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| 09/07/2006 8:57 PM |
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I love how some guys think that the current winches are "more than enough" (it is for them) therefore no one needs a bigger winch.
I've always felt the winches allowed by the rules were too small. I like daysailing (not racing) with my kids. And I sail where it's windy. We want to encourage women crews & helms. We want to encourage new sailors. The 40 winches are not materially more expensive than the 32s. If 32 is "more than enough," you won't need a more powerful winch even if it's allowed by the rules, and you won't need to upgrade. So there's no arms race.
As far as winch position goes, some crews seem to want to run them on the house. Some like them next to the helmsman. Positioning your hardware based on how YOUR TEAM likes to sail seems fully within the realm of one-design to me.
Recommend yes.
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Bob Harden
Posts:4
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| 06/19/2007 10:07 PM |
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I am interested in reviving this discussion.
Please see my posts under the Subject: Position Limitations on Primary Winches
Thanks
Bob |
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Chris McLaughlin
Posts:38
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| 06/22/2007 6:45 AM |
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Bob,
On Hedgehog we have reviewed the positioning of winches and think as follows:
We cannot see the advantage of using the coach roof winches and removing the cockpit winches.
In fact, for most crews, I think it would be perceived a disadvantage owing to:
1. Extra deck windage
2. Uncomfortable for 3rd crew crossing the deck
3. Unable to use lopez/cross winch system
4. Inferior roll tacking as cockpit crew stands more inboard during sheeting in.
5. More weight higher-up
We can see an advantage in sub 5 mph but not beyond that.
But on a modified tack technique, cockpit man pulls genoa in through Lopez block - ideal in medium winds not so clever in breeze - then heads for the rail. Number three tacks with the winch handle, ;loads coach top winch and winds in. Coockpit man then takes over the tune.
Worth trying on a couple of boats.
Chris
GBR 4177 Hedgehog
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Roger Harden
Posts:1
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| 06/25/2007 4:53 PM |
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Bob asked the correct question when he asked "Should a team be allowed to remove a pair of cockpit winches they don't use?"
This is not about which trimming technique is better. Both ways work and both ways are legal today. Some people use the spin pole jaws up some jaws down. The debate will never end to which one is better. The one is better is the one you like to use.
The same holds true for this. If a team simply wants to remove the cockpit winches becuase they are in the way and not used, they should be allowed to. Some people believe that the cabin top winches and the deck mounted halyard cleats where in the way. So they removed them. This is no different.
Roger
USA 5325 "New Rules" (No put intended this really is the name of the boat)
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Chris McLaughlin
Posts:38
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| 06/26/2007 1:34 AM |
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Bob,
You are a very experienced J 24 sailor and have developed your own particular technique for handling the jib and genoa sheeting.
You also have some wonderfully engineered delrin based Lopez blocks - where can I get a set!?
Regarding the winches, it is clear that the boat was primarily designed to include two cockpit winches, currently of 76mm, though personally and to encourage youth sailing and female crew, I would be happy to see the Primaries increase in size.
The secondaries at rule 6.1.2 are an optional equipment - originally for halyards and in some cases to help with spinnaker trimming. I have over the years tried with two secondaries, one secondary and no secondaries. We don't use these but a single secondary, aligned to the jib halyard does help many crews get the required headstay tension. Crossing the boat over the coach roof if difficult enough with 70mm secondaries in place. With 76mm or larger the difficulty increases.
For my part I would be happy to let competitors put the winches where they wish, but I can't help thinking that the majority of sailors would like to retain the present arrangement.
But that is the point of the thread!!
Chris |
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Bob Harden
Posts:4
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| 06/26/2007 2:19 AM |
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The lopez blocks we have made were "tricky". This is because the cabin top winches are located further forward then the "deck" winches. To get them to uncleat when you sheet to the winch, the angle the cleat is held on the block is critical. The cleat has to be rotated much further to the top of the block so it will uncleat when the sheet is run to the winch, and therefore it is much harder to cleat when you are pulling the sheet in standing over the block.
No matter what you "engineer", the lopez method cannot work as well with cabin-top winches as with deck-mounted winches. It is pure geometry. We don't really use them except in very light air, or as a lazy aid to help hold the sheet in a cleat when we raise the genoa and are busy flying the spinnaker etc. Then our trimmer knows where the sheet is when he goes to pull it in as we round the mark. Kinda like the ol' bar-bouys held your beer in a specific place and you could always find it and it didn't spill while sailing.
I really doubt very many boats would discard the deck winches if given the opportunity. This is because it is just easier to pull the genoa in with them. Your feet can push on the cockpit well in a fashion parallel to the load on the sheet (whether or not you sheet to windward, or do it old man style on the leeward winch). This is a natural pull. On the cabin top winches you will eventually be pulling across your body, you will not be very strong this way, and you can't muscle the sheet in. So the technique to use the cabin top winches involves timing between the helmsman and the trimmer. This is old man stuff not young muscle.
Ask yourself this question - Why do we call winches "primary"? Is it because they are just bigger than other winches on the boat? Or is it because we use them (primarily) to sheet the running rigging? We say our primary winches are located on our cabin-top, and our secondary winches, mounted way aft on the deck we don't use. |
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