 |
 |
|
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums IJCA Forums
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IJCA Forums
|
|
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
Lorne Chapman
Posts:150
 |
| 01/10/2006 2:43 AM |
|
I have sailed on or owned a J/24 USA 85 since 1977. It has been an excellent boat. It and the Class Association have served me well. I believe that the technical committee has judiciously maintained the class rules, however I have a proposed change. My proposal is to delete the restriction in racing rule 8.1.5.
Current rule
8. RESTRICTIONS WHEN RACING...
8.1.5 Use of Loran, GPS, or similar position fixing devices.
Proposed rule
8. RESTRICTIONS WHEN RACING...
8.1.5 not in use.
Rational
The rule is becoming out dated. GPSs have become very common place and inexpensive. They are readily available at all marine stores and similar recreational outfitters as well as National chain stores such as TARGET. I believe this to be true world wide. In addition to mounted units, GPSs come as hand helds, on watches, in PDAs and in phones. On a J/24 style course a GPS provides little benefit, however, when racing a GPS allows sailors to evaluate their speed w/o more costly knot meters (1) and they could benefit the same sailor when sailing a PHRF(2) longer or a distance race. Lastly, the GPS is a very affordable safety device that is as or more important than a fog horn in such conditions or in a thunder storm(3).
Additionally, enforcement of this rule is becoming difficult and accidental infractions (e.g. a crew member accidentally bring a PDA/watch that is GPS capable and wrongly accused of using it) could result in protest that taint sailing as much as protect it.
(1)Optional equipment rule 6.1.9 Electronic devices to record, measure and calculate average speed, and to indicate distance and water depth allows a hole myriad of electronic equipment that is much more expensive than a GPS.
(2) As J/24 one design racing has contracted due to competitions from many new products in sailboat racing, J/24 sailors have begun more an more PHRF style racing. In parallel w/ this, PHRF Organizations across the United States have developed "One design" ratings to accommodate one designs with speed reducing requirements (e.g. Class smaller head sails, crew limits, roller furlers that are not used) and avoid penalizing one design features that are outside of PHRF limitations for no penalty. This was down to equal out the PHRF version and One Design Versions of various designs. A near to class example is the J/24 spinnaker that has a mid girth measurement allowed by the J/24 class rules larger then the PHRF limits. Sail designers figured this out and without the owners realizing it the J/24 spinnaker grew into its rounder than PHRF shape. On the Chesapeake, PHRF has established a OD rating for the J/24 to accommodate the "oversized" spinnaker while also awarding the boat a rating credit for a 150 in lieu 155 genoa sail size, sail material limitations & sail quantity limitations as well as crew weight limitations (e.g. 880 lbs vs. 6 adults of any size). The requirement for OD rating is that I must always comply with my class rules when Racing PHRF including rule 8.1.5. Accordingly, when I race PHRF I am subject to protest if I use my GPS.
(3)I do not sail the Chesapeake Bay w/o my GPS aboard noting that I do not use it when racing one-design. it is a very valuable tool to know your location and is one of the only tools available in limited visibility periods where staying off the beach or out of shipping lanes can mean the difference between returning safely or not.
I am available to discuss this will any of the ITC. Please call my cell listed below most any time.
respectfully,
Originally sent to the ITC by
Alan S Bomar (USA 85)
bomar@widomaker.com
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Lucas
Posts:3
|
| 01/12/2006 4:36 PM |
|
This brings up an interesting point. What about Tacktic or SailComp digital compass? I believe the interpretation of the rule is that you can use them as a compass, but not the features which store a course which can be recalled or used with the head/lift indicators. Is that correct?
If we are opening up the discussion to allow for GPS, we should also look at the use of the digital compasses.
Thanks,
Michael |
|
|
|
|
Lorne Chapman
Posts:150
|
| 01/16/2006 5:52 PM |
|
Posted on behalf of Stuart Jardine
I can see exactly why Alan wants this, as it obviously puts him at a disadvantage in handicap racing around the cans etc.
Personally, I am against their use when One Design racing on our standard Windward/Leeward courses, they would be another expense that is not
really needed on these types of course. Those worth having on a J24 are still not that cheap in the UK.
My solution would be to improve the wording in 8.1.5..
My draft proposal for Rule 8.1.5 would be something like this :-
Add after fixing devices " except when handicap racing or club racing where other yachts in the class division are permitted to use these devices".
I do agree there is an outside chance of someone trying to use one on the course or just have it with him but like the hand held VHF and the mobile phone it would be easy enough to add them to ISAF standard Instruction 25, as in future we are asking all to follow the ISAF standard layout for SI's
For Alan - Would something like this solve your problem ?.
|
|
|
|
|
Nancy Zangerle
Posts:21
|
| 01/16/2006 7:19 PM |
|
With all respect to Lorne, Stuart and Alan - I do not believe that the rule requires any modification. To accomplish what Alan desires - ability to use a GPS device when sailing his J/24 in PHRF races - the permission should be granted in the NOR or SIs for the specific race or series of races. RRS 86 allows for changes to the Racing Rules. A rule of the Class is a "rule" as defined in the RRS.
If the GPS is an issue, perhaps the Class can broadcast recommended language for use in the NOR or SIs by any organizing authority for a race or regatta sailed under handicap rules. It would require some education - perhaps utilizing the network of fleet captains and district governors (at least in the U.S.) to spread the word among OAs and RCs.
I would think that there is some broad general statement already being used in NORs and SIs that address this issue. |
|
|
|
|
Alan Bomar
Posts:2
|
| 01/17/2006 9:23 PM |
|
Nancy, I agree that PHRF of the Chesapeake could deal with this in their handbook and I am working to get it changed on that side, however that approach starts to defeat the benefits PHRF gets by issuing and rating based on boats One design Configuration. PHRF nationally in the US has attempted to use One design specifications to simplify the rating of boats with unique one design arrangements, particularly those that limit headsails to 110% LP. Similarly, I can petition the Race administrator to modify the sailing instructions. I am also working with that approach.
Last I return to my statement that the GPS is a very affordable safety device that is as or more important than a fog horn in such conditions or in a thunder storm. I believe the rule limiting GPS is antiqated considering the small cost of such units. I believe the J/24 Class can benefit by the change as it is an effective tool to gage performance without purchasing and installing knot meter which is allowed by the rules.
respectfully,
Alan Bomar
757-810-4518 |
|
|
|
|
Hans Spiller
Posts:8
|
| 01/20/2006 10:53 PM |
|
A GPS can provide a significant advantage in a place where currents are strong and complex. It is also a very useful safety device. I carry a small portable in my gearbag, which has the marina entrance programmed into it. I've been caught in the fog a couple of times. I leave it ashore when I'm one-design racing.
When one design racing, there are generally enough support boats around that getting lost in the fog is not likely. When distance racing or handicap racing, or when doing deliveries, the one design rules don't apply.
I think the rule should be rephrased to say that GPS may be carried but not used during one design racing. For "big" races (i.e. world qualifiers), the sailing instructions could be specific that they should not even be aboard. I think the point is that we don't want to discourage them since they are so valuable as a safety device. As Alan points out, it's not a cost issue anymore.
-Hans |
|
|
|
|
Lorne Chapman
Posts:150
|
| 01/23/2006 4:49 PM |
|
Original From Reid Stava - 22 January 2006
I believe the intention of this rule is to limit the usage of electronic devices during racing, not to prohibit it's use for safety purposes before or after. Granted it may be a nit but I believe the intention is to avoid turning the boat into an electronic wonder a'la offshore one-offs. Some of the latest gadgetry allow coupling a computer to a GPS (hand held) and,using a charting program, plotting tracks for wind shifts, then comparing the tracks of several legs for tactical use. Clever but, I feel, not what small boat one design racing is intended to be.
|
|
|
|
|
Bruce Hubble
Posts:18
|
| 03/16/2006 9:22 PM |
|
All this discussion...can I have a clear answer to:
Can a Sail Comp be used or not? If it can, can you use the lift/header function?
I really don't see it as a helper beyond not having to write down the heading on each tack.
My GPS however....it calculates. And thus does not belong on small boats using the VMG functions.
However, it is a very cheap speedo.
Is the GPS banned from even being on the boat? Mine will be on board...with no batteries installed during racing. Will that survive an inventory/protest?
|
|
|
|
|
Chris McLaughlin
Posts:38
|
| 07/02/2006 5:47 PM |
|
| There should be no GPS on board for one-design fleet racing, but in mixed fleets where other classes have it it seems perfectly reasonable. |
|
|
|
|
Pete Ramsdale
Posts:15
|
| 07/04/2006 9:07 PM |
|
Rule 8.1.5 prohibits their use and does not prohibit their being on-board. Same for cell phones etc.
Now as watches and cell phones are routinely equipped with GPS, there will come a time when it is nigh on impossible to keep them off the boat. I respect that hooking them up to laptops is not the intent of keelboat racing, but aren't we in danger of becoming a "traditional class". We used to be cutting edge sportsboats.....
I'd suggest a rule such as:
Optional Equipment
6.1.28 A handheld GPS unit with internal batteries and no external connections
This way the devices can't be connected to laptops, and are no more useful (maybe even less so) than a log. But if you want a speed reading it'll save a hole in the hull.
Pete Ramsdale |
|
|
|
|
charles harrison
Posts:1
|
| 07/10/2006 5:24 PM |
|
| I am a ocean captain and teach celestial navigation. Navigation is my way of life. Sailing on the gulf coast without a gps is dangerous. We race were there are charted stumps and shalow water, gps is not nice it is necessary. Now you can buy an antena to hook to a laptop for 35.00 and down load free raystar charts from http://ocsdata.ncd.noaa.gov/chartserverv2.0/jsp/index.jsp. this gives you a chart tool for anyone and will soon be world wide. It only makes good sense to have them on board. |
|
|
|
|
David Ellis
Posts:5
|
| 07/11/2006 10:43 AM |
|
| I can see no problem with allowing handheld GPS. As I recall, the original intent of this rule when it was introduced to keep the cost of J24 sailing down. Needless to say, with the gestation period for new rules to get into service, it's first year of operation was the year that the price dropped out of the GPS market!! |
|
|
|
|
Andy McLelland
Posts:8
|
| 07/11/2006 1:45 PM |
|
GPS should be excluded from he Class rules. Any National Authorities and or local event management can make allowances if they wish for safety or other reasons. Please keep the boat simple.
|
|
|
|
|
Gianpietro Pollesel
Posts:4
|
| 07/19/2006 7:28 PM |
|
Posted By Lorne Chapman on 01/10/2006 2:43 AM
I have sailed on or owned a J/24 USA 85 since 1977. It has been an excellent boat. It and the Class Association have served me well. I believe that the technical committee has judiciously maintained the class rules, however I have a proposed change. My proposal is to delete the restriction in racing rule 8.1.5.
Current rule
8. RESTRICTIONS WHEN RACING...
8.1.5 Use of Loran, GPS, or similar position fixing devices.
Proposed rule
8. RESTRICTIONS WHEN RACING...
8.1.5 not in use.
Rational
The rule is becoming out dated. GPSs have become very common place and inexpensive. They are readily available at all marine stores and similar recreational outfitters as well as National chain stores such as TARGET. I believe this to be true world wide. In addition to mounted units, GPSs come as hand helds, on watches, in PDAs and in phones. On a J/24 style course a GPS provides little benefit, however, when racing a GPS allows sailors to evaluate their speed w/o more costly knot meters (1) and they could benefit the same sailor when sailing a PHRF(2) longer or a distance race. Lastly, the GPS is a very affordable safety device that is as or more important than a fog horn in such conditions or in a thunder storm(3).
Additionally, enforcement of this rule is becoming difficult and accidental infractions (e.g. a crew member accidentally bring a PDA/watch that is GPS capable and wrongly accused of using it) could result in protest that taint sailing as much as protect it.
(1)Optional equipment rule 6.1.9 Electronic devices to record, measure and calculate average speed, and to indicate distance and water depth allows a hole myriad of electronic equipment that is much more expensive than a GPS.
(2) As J/24 one design racing has contracted due to competitions from many new products in sailboat racing, J/24 sailors have begun more an more PHRF style racing. In parallel w/ this, PHRF Organizations across the United States have developed "One design" ratings to accommodate one designs with speed reducing requirements (e.g. Class smaller head sails, crew limits, roller furlers that are not used) and avoid penalizing one design features that are outside of PHRF limitations for no penalty. This was down to equal out the PHRF version and One Design Versions of various designs. A near to class example is the J/24 spinnaker that has a mid girth measurement allowed by the J/24 class rules larger then the PHRF limits. Sail designers figured this out and without the owners realizing it the J/24 spinnaker grew into its rounder than PHRF shape. On the Chesapeake, PHRF has established a OD rating for the J/24 to accommodate the "oversized" spinnaker while also awarding the boat a rating credit for a 150 in lieu 155 genoa sail size, sail material limitations & sail quantity limitations as well as crew weight limitations (e.g. 880 lbs vs. 6 adults of any size). The requirement for OD rating is that I must always comply with my class rules when Racing PHRF including rule 8.1.5. Accordingly, when I race PHRF I am subject to protest if I use my GPS.
(3)I do not sail the Chesapeake Bay w/o my GPS aboard noting that I do not use it when racing one-design. it is a very valuable tool to know your location and is one of the only tools available in limited visibility periods where staying off the beach or out of shipping lanes can mean the difference between returning safely or not.
I am available to discuss this will any of the ITC. Please call my cell listed below most any time.
respectfully,
Originally sent to the ITC by
Alan S Bomar (USA 85)
bomar@widomaker.com
I think that to have a GPS in relax is a good think for safety, and in race 2006 at least one crew member has a portatile GPS.
No limitation for GPS is a modernization cange, good IDEA
|
|
|
|
|
Damian Thomson
Posts:4
|
| 07/22/2006 1:47 AM |
|
Posted By Mike Lucas on 01/12/2006 4:36 PM
This brings up an interesting point. What about Tacktic or SailComp digital compass? I believe the interpretation of the rule is that you can use them as a compass, but not the features which store a course which can be recalled or used with the head/lift indicators. Is that correct?
If we are opening up the discussion to allow for GPS, we should also look at the use of the digital compasses.
Thanks,
Michael
Mike and Bruce, This was bought up in the old forums but I don't think it was answered there either. I will attempt to answer this but no doubt get it wrong.
My understanding is that the tacktics and sailcomps are illegal if the "features" are used. I also believe that everybody is in denial over this issue because pretty much everybody has one of these units on board, whether or not they used the stored header function. (Personally I prefer to just keep bearings on the deck and in my head.) The problem is that it is nigh on impossible to police.
|
|
|
|
|
Tom Ruwitch
Posts:3
|
| 07/24/2006 10:23 PM |
|
This post is copied from the US J24 class form arcives
Interpretation of IJCA Rule 4.1.3
By Rodney S. Johnstone,
Chairman, IJCA Technical Committee
On November 2, 1986, the IJCA World Council approved an amendment to Rule 4.1.3(equipment on board while racing) to require "One fixed marine type compass of magnetic card or digital readout capable only of instantaneous readout and current trend information. (Compasses capable of displaying stored headings and/or performing calculations for storage of tactical information shall not be allowed.)"
A specific question has arisen as to whether the Sailcomp Model PC103 digital compass with header/lift option falls within the requirements of the rule. With this compass one of three buttons may be punched which will set the current heading of the boat. Another button can be punched (say on the opposite tact) to set another heading in memory. These headings cannot be later displayed, but an indicator on top of the compass can later indicate (at the press of a button) whether the boat is up or down from that heading.
The clear intent of the rule is to prevent the use of any electronic compass that can provide information or make calculations not possible with an ordinary magnetic card compass. There are several magnetic card compasses available where headings can be set mechanically with a compass rose that rotates around the compass card (Suunto for one). Another method more commonly used is to write headings in grease pencil next to the compass. These operations clearly define the limits of functions that the PC103 is capable of
performing. Because the Sailcomp Model PC103 is not capable of performing any information beyond what can be obtained just as readily with a magnetic card compass, it is permissable within the scope of IJCA rules. A compass equipped with the electronic capability to make calculations and produce average headings would clearly be illegal however.
The test for any model of compass is whether it can perform functions not possible with a magnetic card compass.
|
|
|
|
|
Damian Thomson
Posts:4
|
| 07/25/2006 11:14 PM |
|
| Thankyou for that clarification Tom. |
|
|
|
|
Rodger Voss
Posts:36
|
| 08/01/2006 7:45 PM |
|
| My response is on behalf of 12 of the 23 polled Lake George - Fleet 24 members. The majority response is . . . split decision. Discussion: Not to be used during racing. |
|
|
|
|
Seth Spiller
Posts:7
|
| 07/25/2007 9:39 PM |
|
| Damian, Rodger, it sounds like the use of the headed and lifted features of a TackTic is illegal, please confirm specifically regarding the TackTic unit. If this is the case, then wouldn't it make sense to require they be pulled from any boat while racing? The excuse that it is my magnetic compass really doesn't hold water when you figure a large percentage of the boats are used just for racing (vs. cruising). |
|
|
|
|
Seth Spiller
Posts:7
|
| 08/01/2007 8:52 AM |
|
| Update, I got a response from TackTic about legality of the headed / lifted feature of their systems, will post his reply later as it is on another computer, as far as they are concerned, all its features are legal (including bar graph) and in use by a large percentage of the racing J/24 fleet without protest... I inquired about how I can mount their wireless wind transducer on the boat and yet disable it for racing but be able to use it for cruising with my family (when I'm single handed, allows me to flip on the autopilot using the steer to wind feature), no response on that one yet. |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Home | News | Events | Organisation | J24 History | Forums | Classifieds | Tips & Tricks | Links
|
|
|
Copyright 2008 by IJCA
 Terms Of UsePrivacy Statement |
|
|