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Forums IJCA Forums
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IJCA Forums
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Lorne Chapman
Posts:150
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| 04/28/2006 5:40 PM |
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The ITC has been approached about considering a change to rule 3.8.3 that would remove the restrictions on the location of the primary winches in the current rule. The purpose of this posting is to use this forum to get some open discussion and feedback from the class on the idea prior to proceeding to a formal rule change proposal.
The reason for the proposed change is that the boats with the request are using their smaller cabin top winches as the regular winches for sheeting the headsails. These winches are mounted on delryn blocks at the aft, inner corner of the cabin top on each side, just outside the companionway. With this technique for sheeting the headsail, the primary winches in their current location serve no purpose other than to bruise the cockpit crew butts and get in the way of the helmsman. The intention would be to replace the small cabin-top winches with the primaries to use a bidirectional winch with a greater mechanical advantage for both headsail and spinnaker sheeting and eliminate the samll winches. The boats using this technique use Lopez blocks on the genoa sheets.
This change would be a further departure from the one design concept of the class where all boats look essentially the same. On the other hand, it opens up some new approaches to improving boat handling for those who want to use it.
We'd appresciate seeing thoughts about the idea and some sense of the level of support for such a change. |
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Tim Winger
Posts:49
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| 04/29/2006 11:36 AM |
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I can't see a real downside to doing this. If the leads are ok, it keeps crew weight forward and crew out of the cockpit area. It does shift the weight of the winches further forward, but also raises it to the cabin top. That seems like about a wash to me.
Tim Winger |
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Jim Yares
Posts:4
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| 05/06/2006 1:28 PM |
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I would support the rule change. I'd probably wait for other boats to implement it and fine tune the use of it before doing it on my boat.
My perspective is that moving things around on the boat doesn't really impact the cost of ownership or drastically impact the one-design nature of the boat. We have similar rule changes that allow the movement of the keel, removal of the cabin top winches and a number of other minor gear shuffles.
I'm less supportive of rule changes that will drive owners to spend a substantial amount of money upgrading or adding equipment. My view is that one of the primary benefits of J24 racing is its relative low-cost per unit of fun.
Jim |
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thom henneberger
Posts:7
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| 05/06/2006 6:28 PM |
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| I oppose this proposal. Tradition alone dictates that it should be rejected. The proposal represents a fundmental change to the J24's deck layout. Fundamental changes to the boat's design should only be made in the interests of significantly improving safety. They should not be done to just to enhance boat performance no matter how convenient or low cost. |
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stephen estes
Posts:2
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| 05/22/2006 10:37 PM |
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It would be easy to say "Yes" to such a proposal. It doesn't drastically change the characteristics of the boat, like some other modifications might.
But since the J/24 Class is so heavily weighted towards "One-Design," in the end I would vote "No."
There's probably no "Right" answer, but in my mind the change seems to fall on the other side of whatever imaginary line defines the edge of the J/24 One-Design boundary.
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Rodger Voss
Posts:36
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| 08/01/2006 8:49 PM |
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| My response is on behalf of 12 of the 23 polled Lake George - Fleet 24 members. The majority response is . . . to keep the primaries where they are. Discussion: To allow secondaries to be of similar size and ratio to that of the primaries. |
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Doug Hosford
Posts:28
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| 08/02/2006 4:57 PM |
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Although I don't expect to do it, I favor allowing any change making the boat more user friendly without effecting speed or safety or adding new hardware to be purchased. There is adequate precedent for deck layout changes. Most boats from the early '80s have many filled holes (mine has about 60) from changing the original deck layout to the now standard deck layout.
Fleet 155
USA 2379
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Bob Harden
Posts:4
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| 06/19/2007 9:20 PM |
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I am interested in reviving this discussion. We recently experienced an injury that focuses our attention on this proposal.
A little background - we have used the so-called "secondary" winches (exclusively) for over 15 years to trim our headsails and spinnaker sheets/guys. For us, the words "primary" and "secondary", as used in the Class Rules, are BACKWARDS! :)) So, let's call these "cabin-top" and "cockpit" instead. We use our cabin-top winches and our cockpit winches are mounted too far aft to be used ideally by today's trimming techniques/standards.
A little background, our cabin-top winches are original issue off of a vintage 1979 boat. These are the smaller vareity winches and have been used in all conditions, heavy and light. The Newport Worlds was one heavy air, big wave event, as well as the Anniversary Midwinters at Key West, and I know off a boat (my brother) that sailed in the BIG blow at Rochester this last year in the NA's. They have been tested on boats from TPI, Waterline, and J-Boats Italy. We personally have used them locally in over a thousand or two thousand races (again I want to emphasize exclusively). Never has there been a reliability of "strength" issue with the cabin top. No cracking, bending, or failure of the cabin top. (a side note - I have seen several cockpit deck mounts that have failed). I am willing to testify that reliability of the cabin top is not the issue. It is solely the strength of the bolts, the backing washers, and the integrty of the balsa core in the area a winch is mounted on a J/24.
The rules have always allowed sheeting any of the running rigging to the cabin top. So this issue is also not one of providing a "new" hot-shot or rock star technique. The ability to use cabin-top winches already exists in the rules as does the ability to use cockpit winches. So let's also not slip into a debate about which location is best for trimming. Both are available today and I would think always be available. It is the sailor's choice. For the record, we are old men in our forty's and fifty's (young men by some standards) who are looking for comfort not a boat speed advantage. :)
It seems we can do the best service to the Class if we limit the discussion to the sole issue:
a) Should a team be allowed to remove a pair of cockpit winches they don't use? OR, Why should a team have to keep them on the boat even though they are not used?
I appreciate your participation.
Thanks,
Bob Harden
USA 791
USA 1997
USA 5319
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Hauke Kruess
Posts:1
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| 11/03/2007 9:20 AM |
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I am opposed to the proposal for it would not benefit the class or the majority of the membership. Boats would differ essentially making it more difficult to find "correct" boats for charter on the international level or collect similar boats for local match or team racing.
Regards, Hauke |
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Nils Jannichsen
Posts:65
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| 11/14/2007 4:52 PM |
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Last year we simplified the rules about the primary winches, I do not see a problem with allowing the primary winches on the cabin top, I think we should give directions/rules about where they are to be placed.
a rule could be:
Two primary sheet winches positioned on deck between the mainsheet traveler and an imaginary line 30 cm in front of the forward end of the cockpit well with a drum diameter not exceeding 76mm.
About charter boats and finding competitive boats, I really do not see a problem; the very most boat will have their big primaries on the original place. If in the future the placement on the cabin seems better then people will step over to the other method. I do not think that there are at this moment sailors that did not end in the top 5 of a worlds because they had to sail with a chartered boat with the winches on a position, not fitting the team
Nils
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