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Subject: vermiculite replacement
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Bill Taylor
Posts:25

11/27/2009 2:27 AM  
I am planning to replace the vermiculite on our boat this coming spring.  The old Tillotson-Pearson web based reference at; http://www.j24class.org/usa/faqs/verm_repair.htm calls for filling the sump with a mixture of resin, chopped fiber, and aerosil, but I think the kit that comes from Waterline fills the sump with foam and glass laminations.  The Waterline kit costs $750 + including a replacement cabin sole.  I am hoping to save a buck in these hard times - Can anyone advise on the pros and cons for getting the kit versus doing it all with supplies from the local marine store?

Also - two questions related to the Tillotson-Pearson sheet: 1) What is cabosil? and for that matter, what is aerosil?, and 2)  It calls for the installation of 8 floor supports, but only gives 3 locations for them??

Another question - Is it possible to salvage the old floor for reuse?

Also, I have heard the term "penske board" used related to the floor supports.  What is that, and where might one find it?

Thanks for any insights.
charles bumgardner
Posts:13

11/29/2009 10:25 AM  
I am looking forward to seeing in formation on this topic. The verm was taken out of my boat in 1980 or so.  A new sole was placed and after 30 years it is needing replacement.  Penski board is composite board, very light and very strong. I believe it is class legal for core replacement and winch backing, should be for this too.  I got a sheet for a fiberglass repair shop.  Full sheet is pricey.  Try to buy scrap.
Stephen Gonzalez
Posts:15

11/29/2009 7:39 PM  

Hi Bill, 

Cabosil is just silica filler like the West Systems 406.  It thickens the epoxy mix and makes it much harder and thicker for bonding and filling.  You can get it under a number of names/distributors.

The Waterline Systems kit comes with a gallon tub of cabosil, a gallon tub of chopped fiberglass, a few yards of biaxial cloth,  some pieces of 1 1/2" thick Penske board (now called Airex PXc board by Baltek), 3 laminated "floor" supports, and the replacement cabin sole cut from teak and holly plywood.  

Penske board and filling in the sump:
The Penske board is used to help quickly fill in the sump by layering this with epoxy/cabosil/chopped glass filler.  It allows you to fill the sump quicker with less epoxy and it is ligher in weight than epoxy.  Jamestown Dirstibutors sells it (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=1593&familyName=Baltek+Airex+PXc+Boards) but only in full 4' x 8' sheets.  Not sure who else carries it but be aware of two things: 

  1 - it floats on epoxy so you have to weight it down to encapsulate it or glue it down with a thin layer of epoxy mix then pour more epoxy mix over it to cover.
  2 - cut it using a jigsaw with a 6 tooth per inch wood cutting blade.  The blade will dull quickly due to the fiberglass in the board and wear protection or you will itch big time.

Check out this thread as well.  http://www.j24class.org/IJCAForums/tabid/72/forumid/4/postid/2261/view/topic/Default.aspx  It gives more info and there is a link to Rich Taylor's site showing all the work he did replacing the vermiculite with mixed epoxy.  Someone also mentioned that waterline may sell the kit minus the new sole for $250 but check with them .  They are great people and very helpfull.

Floors/supports:
The floors included in the kit are really meant for reinforcing the keel sump to hull area by tying the hull and keel sump together once they are glassed in place.  By adding wood or plywood strips to the top you can use them to support the new sole.  You can also make additional supports spaced evenly across the hull to fully support the sole.  Check out this pic to see what that this looks like with the sole removed - http://sailaway.homedns.org/main.php?g2_itemId=128&g2_page=3

Last thought on the supports, drill a 3/4" hole through the "floors" at the lowest point to allow any water to drain down to the "sump" area.  Otherwise it all backs up behind the boards and you have to remove the sole to dry everything out.  I found that out the hard way as well.  Kind of like an old wood boat where they drilled "limber holes" in the floors for this same purpose.

Replacing the sole:
As far as cutting out and re-using the existing sole.  It depends on what condition your current sole is in.  Mine was soaked and the balsa in it was rotted out.  You could put your foot through the sole if not carefull (and someone did).  Completely useless so I replaced it.  If yours is dry and in good shape then you just need to add a flange around the cutout to support the old section of the sole.  It depends on how much vermiculite you have to remove. 

If it's just in the sump then don't cut out the sole at all, just do like Rich did and remove it through the existing opening.  If you cut out the old sole but only have issues with the vermiculite in the middle then the new sole can rest on top of the remaining vermiculite and you might not need a flange to support it.  You will have to decide once you get in there.  Just make sure that the keel and hull are fully supported before you start because once you remove the vermiculte there will be no support for the keel except the fiberglass banding around the keel and stub.

Good luck and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions.
Steve
 

 

Bill Taylor
Posts:25

12/05/2009 3:16 PM  
Thanks Steve - this is hugely helpfull.  I am hopeing to tackle it on my own this spring to save a few bucks, and your great feedback is helping me gain the knowledge and confidence to do it.

Bill
Rich Taylor
Posts:34

12/11/2009 1:31 PM  
As Stephen mentions, I filled the back half of my sump with epoxy mixture.
Much was filled with a "milled fibers" mix, but I went to high-density
filler when that ran out.

My repairs are only a first step though...  My floor is clearly rotten in some
places and there is vermiculite under that rotten floor that I'd like to get
out.  So, I'd like to do a 2nd phase some day of removing the floor, adding
ribs for more support, clearing out *all* the verm (and establishing drainage
from the back of the boat) and building a solid floor.  But not yet...

Pictures of what I did do are here:  http://www.imageevent.com/taylorpix/j24work

-= Rich Taylor, #140
Bill Taylor
Posts:25

02/07/2010 12:43 AM  
Is there any way to tell whether we have vermiculite under the cabin sole without damaging the sole?  We have hull number 1980.  Is there any record of which hull numbers got vermiculite just in the sump and not under the sole?  Is there any visible characteristic for the sole or the sump or joints between that might provide a clue?  I don't want to rip out the floor only to find out that I didn't need to :) 
Bryan Wutzke
Posts:30

02/07/2010 8:42 PM  
Hi Bill,

According to the buyer guide, in 1980 around hull #1900, TPI stopped using vermiculite in the sump.  They must have still continued using a small amount of vermiculite to fill the back-most sump partition where the lift bar is mounted.  When I was looking at my boat before I bought it, there were visible cracks in the that back area, when I took a screwdriver to pry around the area and investigate further, it was easy to see that the material wasn't part of the fiberglass at all.  When I got around to re-supporting those keel bolts and lift bar, I totally dug out the cavity.  The vermiculite easily chipped away to reveal all sorts of "stuff" ... scraps of fiberglass, chunks of dried resin, and miscellaneous toe rail hardware that probably fell to the bottom of the hull during construction :-)

Cheers,

Bryan Wutzke
USA #3801 "Maybe"
Excelsior, MN
Alex Mouton
Posts:1

05/05/2010 5:43 PM  
Hi Folks
New J24 owner here. (1979 hull 1039)
One of the many (many) things this boat could use is a verm job.
In looking at Rich's photo series I wondered if the rear bolts could be supported in other ways.
Has there been any example of filling that volume with a preformed piece of material, or perhaps a sparser structure to support the bolts fore/aft and laterally?

Thanks
Alex
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