Per a prior entry about the brittleness of the plastic rails, I just had a call the other day from a customer who recently put plastic rails on his 24. A few weeks ago he fell on the boat and slammed one rail with his knee, shattering it (the rail that is). The fortunate... and scary thing, is that his knee hit the rail about 1 inch over from one of the screws holding the rail to the deck. Had he hit directly on the screw it would have punctured his knee. Gives one pause for thought.

I've recently redone the teak toe rails on my 1977 boat, sail no 154, and it was pretty easy going. Simply sanded to bare wood, applied long lasting masking tape (the blue stuff) and brushed on three coats of "Armada". The beauty is there's no sanding between coats. The wood looks good, not orange like Sikkens. When the "Armada" looks thin simly brush on another coat - no sanding. If it gets too thin, sand out the bare spot and apply more coats. Each coat of all rails took about 30 minutes. I'm in Tampa so the UV attack is pretty strong. In general I expect o put on two coats about every 6 months to keep ahead of the UV.

just a quick word about the "new" plastic toerails...one of our guys has replaced his twice now!. they are brittle, and once they crack (either from too large a screw used or a hard inpact) they break away in chunks. At least the teak is much more resilient....and non-skid to boot. I'll stay with the teak ones...they look better, don't fall apart easily, and add looks t�at. There is enough plastic in the world already.

Taking the teak rails really is a pain. The first step is to acknowledge that you will break them. After you've done that, this method doesn't seem so radical.
Tools
Sawzall
Combo (Wood/Metal) Blade
Duct Tape
Hammer and Nailset
1" Stiff Putty Knife
Heat Gun or Hair Dryer
Lay a few layers of duct tape on the inboard side of the rail to offer a tiny bit of protection from the blade.
Working from Outboard, slice the rail off as close to the deck as you dare. Closer is better. You will slice right through the bolts.
Knock the bolts through the deck with the hammer and nail set.
Use the Heat Gun or hair dryer to warm up the 5200 and scrape it up with the knife. You should have a very thin wafer of teak, this will let the heat work on the 5200. Be careful with the heat, fiberglass really does not like being cooked.
This sounds extreme, but it is really fast (about 2 hours for all the rails). It also reduces or eliminates pulling chunks of deck off with the rail. Those chunks are a pain to fix.

>> Be careful where you use 5200, it likes to take gelcoat with it when removed.

Try using a heat gun when removing pieces bedded with 5200. Heat works wonders, it softens even the oldest, hardest 5200. Just don't bake the gel-coat (if it turns yellow, its too hot).

>> 3m 52million

Good name for the stuff!

A complete set goes for about $350 from TPI ($300 during their winter sale), and they normally have them in stock. Their number is 401-247-1050.

wow.
how much do those plastic rails run...
and what's the lead time for ordering them?

We recently removed old and rather beat-up teak rails from a 1978. I'm not sure if they'd been replaced before, but they were not very difficult to remove. (I don't think they were bed with 3m 52million-my name for it) You'll probably laugh, but i actually removed 80% of the bolts solo (with 3 small pairs of vice grips to hold the bolts while i ran to and from the deck to remove screws). the total time to remove all 7 was around 3-4 hours max. All but one came off in one piece--amazing after the stories I read here.
Myself and crew are good at woodworking, so we milled the 7 new pieces from a piece of teak (around $100). They look great, but now i'm wondering how to put them back on. More specifically, how to bend them easiest??
If anyone can lend some advice, I would appreciate it.

by the way, J. Udell's comment about 4200 is true, it is all that is needed in many different situations. Be careful where you use 5200, it likes to take gelcoat with it when removed.

Regardless of the finish you put over the epoxy, polyurethane or varnish, it should be renewed annually if you don't want the epoxy or topcoat to fail. Its worth the effort to spend a couple of hours to 400 wetsand and recoat the teak each season. If the finish fails from UV, damage, water, whatever, then you must start all over again. The old adage "An ounce of prevention" is very appropriate. You will be very surprised the amount of UV damage that occurs in one season. As one who hates sanding as much as anyone, I prefer to sand a little each year than start from scratch every other.
Happy Sailing;
Paul Scalisi
Quantum Sail Design Group - New Jersey

After you have gone to the trouble of coating with epoxy, why varnish? Use two part linear polyurethane.. much tougher than varnish and longer lasting too. Has the necessary UV filter to protect the epoxy.

Time spent sanding and revarnishing every year is better spent on the water.

Varnish hating non J24 owner.

Oiled teak degrades somewhat gracefully.
Why not just leave it and have a small amount of "distinctive scruffiness" in an otherwise elegent boat.

This string pays testimony to to the adage/anecdote:
110% fibreglass! I'm a Sailor, not a Sander!!

The great advantage of using the epoxy as a base for varnish is as follows:
1. Due to the grainy/porous nature of teak it will take a minimum of 6-8 coats of varnish to seal it without the epoxy. With 2 coats of epoxy you only need 2-3 coats of varnish.
2. The epoxy is harder than varnish or wood and as such is more durable base for applying varnish.
3. The epoxy does need to be protected with varnish, but varnish must be done every year if you want it not to fail. So regardless of epoxy or not you had better plan on varnishing as an annual right of spring.
4. Since the epoxy is harder than varnish, you annual maintenance will be easier since there will be less of a propensity to sand through to bare wood.
5. Regardless of what finish you put on the teak, any damage to the surface must be fixed immediately if you don't want water getting under the finish.
I just built a teak radio box to house a pull out stereo and with 2 coats of epoxy on it and two coats of varnish it looks amazing. I would honestly say that the west system is the equivalent of 5-6 coats of epoxy in terms of filling the pores, depth of gloss, finish.

Ditto Kevin's comments on epoxy not being UV stable. Looks great as a base for varnish, but you must still varnish for protection of hte epoxy. Also agree with Paul about 5200, BUT, try 3M 4200, also a polyurethane sealant, but about 1/2 the tensile strength. Great stuff.

Since you need to coat the epoxy with varnish because of it's UV instability, what's the benefit to using epoxy? If every season you need to re-apply varnish to protect the epoxy surface, is it easier to work with just the wood and no epoxy? Just curious as I'll be going through this next season.

Thanks

In response to David's question about coating teak with epoxy...It is possible, but you must overcoat the West epoxy with varnish or paint. The reason is West epoxy is not UV stable and will degrade with direct exposure to sunlight. Also keep in mind that if the epoxy to wood interface is damaged, you must repair immediately or moisture will find it's way into the wood and cause the epoxy to lift/peel.

I have just removed a rail.

I also had leakage beneath the rail. I thought it might be the hull deck joint. However on closer inspection I was pleased to see that the water was leaking through the toe rail bolt holes.

Look to these before playing around with your hull deck joint.

I have just removed the teak rails on my boat and all I can say is what a mess. We needed to use a very sharp wood chiesel and basically make wood chips. Then using a razor blade clean off the old 5200. The worst part is, even if you are extremely careful, you are going to pull up some of the old gelcoat. While we had the joint open I removed and re-bedded all of the hull-deck bolts with 5200. I am going with the plastic rails to eliminate the annual clean - oil ritual. I refuse to use 5200 to rebed the rails. It is way too strong and I don't know how you would ever get the platic rails off if the need arose. All I can say is best of luck and definitely put a drop cloth around the area you are working to catch the wood chips.

The boat I race on has had varnished teak (everywhere on deck and down below) for several years. After the owner had it resanded/refinished every couple of years where the varnish would peel/bubble from use/UV, he decided to go "au natural" this time. He applies something to it so that it has its "natural grain", but still has the warm-honey color (instead of the old grey color).

The boat would look great with white, plastic toerail, but the teak is in too good of shape to make that a worthwhile endeavor (the boat is cream topside over white bottom, light grey sprayed non-skid deck that follows the original non-skid pattern: a real concours-style boat).

I am getting bored with sanding and teak-oiling the rails on my boat but sure don't want to remove them. I was thinking of coating them with epoxy (clear West 2-part)to make them weatherproof. Has anyone done this? Any issues or better suggestions?

David Doyle
CAN 4201 Innocent Bystander

TPI sells plastic replacement toerails that are virtually maintenance free. Removing the teak ones is a huge pain, but if you plan to repaint it makes the task a little easier in that you need not be as careful about scraping the deck in the process. The teak ones come off in hundreds of small pieces because they are not as strong as the adhesive bonding them to the deck. Use a wood chisel and some elbow grease and be patient. Also, make sure to remove the through-bolts (there are only about 5 per toerail, the other nuts you see are the hull-to-deck joint, and need not be removed). When attaching the new ones, use 3M5200 and self-tapping screws from the underside in the old bolt holes.
Good luck!

TPI offers extruded white plastic toerails as seen on the newer J24s and J22s. They come with end caps that I recommend you DO NOT use, as they invariably change color, look lousy, and hold IN the water that finds its way into the hollow extruded rail. Leave the ends open and they are "self bailing". The extruded rails are available with or without the lip flange that hangs over the decks edge to the hull flange.
As for removing the old... pray. Bonded down with 5200, they will sometimes come off cleanly, other times split in half, leaving a thin slice of teak on the deck, or worse, rip the gelcoat off the deck laminate. We've removed old 7-section toerail sets as fast as five hours, and as long as 14 hours. Note, when you look at the hardware coming thru the deck-hull joint from below, the smaller bolts you see are the ones holding on the toerails. the larger ones are the joint... good idea to leave them alone.

Can you buy replacement toe rails in something other than teak. It is my goal to have a "wood free boat"!

Can anyone offer any advice in removing old style teak toe rails. I'm in the neverending process of rebuilding my '78. my next step is to paint the "freeboard" areas of the boat. It would seem logical to remove the toerails to do this. (or am I going overboard?) I also have a Hull-deck joint leak and maybe I can get in and find it if I remove the toe-rails.
Has anyone re-used the old rails successfully?
I've heard that reinstalling them is a total pain in the butt.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.