Doug,

There are a number of innovations that crews have devised to make this job easier. The one you described using the secondaries in addition to the primaries actually doubles the friction on the primaries because a large portion of the energy is spent in squeezing the primary drum rather than actually turning the drum as a handle on the primary would.

Another technique that I don't use but have seen other use with success involves a cleat that is attached directly to the ratchet block on the genoa track. THat cam cleat is situated in such a way that the trimmer locks the line in as he or she pulls the line standing directly over the genoa track, but the line jumps out of the cleat when it is loaded up on the windward primary. I have watched this technique with some interest and admiration, but my trimmer who we have nic-named the "vanilla gorilla" has sworn that he will beat me sensless if I add cleats to his genoa cars. I think it has to do with his sense of Bravado and his fear of more things to catch the line on the release.

Be patient and experiment a lot. These boats may be 22 years old, but there is still room for us to learn more about them.

Good Luck,
Will

Have to admit, followed this thread with interest to see what all the "big boys" do... I had been trimming on an older setup boat for some time up here in little old Portland Oregon, and found that I could be extremely fast/accurate with normal sheeting, and finishing by taking the slack up to the secondaries for "fine tuning" from the rail. "Fine tuning" means 2-4 inches, if I timed it right, I hardly ever used the winch handle on the primaries. Sounds strange, but it worked! Hadn't thought about just using the secondaries, but think I might have liked it!

Purchased an optimized new boat this year, struggling to find the system that works best when I'm trimming with just primaries. Definately see the advantage of cross sheeting in light air. I also agree with Tom, timing/method on the release is critical in any of the scenarios. Releasing the sail immediately before it starts to backwind against the spreader seems to make a huge difference.

Great discussion! Sail Fast!

Would winning the 1997 J-24 Nationals and a bunch of Texas lake sailors finishing 20th at the Worlds in San Francisco qualify for catching on at the national or world level?

Just thought I would help Harald stir it up a little more.

mr. happy is proud to continue the Texas Circuit tradition of cross sheeting to the secondaries. Scott Young, Mike Haggerty, and Doug Kern certainly got it started on our lake and deserve credit for teaching a lot of us.

As a helmsman, I prefer not to have to worry about a winch handle in addition to a tiller extension, traveler, mainsheet, and a backstay. By going to the secondaries it also involves the middleman more cause he gets to transfer the winch handle and crank for the trimmer. Our trimmer, Kurt Carson, certainly is a strong individual, but the key to what works best for us is timing and coordination between the helm and the genoa trimmer. This timing and coordination is what makes sailing a J/24 a true team experience!!!

On another note, Geoff, I say hats off to you for all of your support of the class. I always look forward to your insights. Keep them coming.

Just to set the record straight windward sheeting (using the windward primary winch to trim the headsail) has been around since 1980. Ed Adams came up with the idea. He had to work hard at selling it to his cockpit crew Bret Nazareth, but we quickly became the only boat in the fleet who could effectively micro-tune this very large sail. A few years later the technique had became widely accepted. Paul Forester and Scott Young experimented with the cabin top winches for a while, but this technique never caught on at the national or world level.

Jay’s description is very accurate, however my observation after training dozens of cockpit crews is that the most difficult part is the release. Three to five wraps have to be eliminated from the winch drum very quickly in order to have enough time to trim the lazy sheet. Most beginners don’t get all the wraps off. The trick is to place your hand very close to the top of the winch and pull directly up the axis of the drum. Even a slight angle out of plumb will result in a bad release. I usually have my cockpit person practice the release without tacking in order to save time. Then when they can accurately release the winch with their eyes closed and their body contorted we start to practice actual tacks.

Once the cockpit person has gained this skill you will have to be very nice to him or her because everyone else will be offering very nice things if he or she will come sail with them. During the training however you can be a mean as you want because everyone will notice how bad your tacks are. Tacking a J/24 well is one of the most difficult tasks in this sport. A good J/24 cockpit crew can do any job on any other boat.

Geoff Moore
Shore Sails Ltd.

Guys,
Here's some fun J/24 history trivia.... At one point the "secondary phenomenon" was so big that about three years ago some very able sailors (amongst them Olympic medalists don't worry guys I won't name names!) relocated their winches inside the boat (upside down). The measurers had a field day with that "loophole" and it was of course ruled "illegal". The reason that some circuit boats went to this system is that they just were not using their primaries, not only were the primaries at their max. forward position, they were also inverted!! Thus the quest for the next "technique" continues!
Some great postings here! Good luck and best regards!
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I should add that the "Jay Miles technique" is demonstrated in the J-World upwind sailing video with none other than Ken Read at the helm with a crew of J-World instructors. Check it out!

Guys,
When it comes to racing what works best depends on your preference, the size/ability of your crew, or what you are used to. Paul Elvström once said that the best sailors are always searching for a better way, weigh all the options and decide what suits them the best (and what the "better way" is just depends on your particular situation).

Good luck and best regards!

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forget about the seconadaries,jay miles system works best,when you put that full wrap on the winward winch you can pull yourself to the high side with the sheet .you must have a good helmsman who can do the final grind with the cockpit man tailing.try putting 150s in the toe rail to give the cockpit man a rest. he really does work harder than evryone else by the way

The cabintop secondaries are in the owner's garage, so we always go to the primaries. Something that we have tried when it builds above 14-15 kts. and we are still using the genoa, is a modified ratchet block with a cleat on it (the block is a modified lower vang block, I think). I pull like mad on the low side (standing up), and the Harken 150 cleat holds the genoa sheet secure, making it a lot easier to put 3-4 wraps on the high-side winch, hop on the rail, and grind in the rest of the genoa. The cleat on the ratchet block is aligned so that when tension is taken on the winch, it pulls out of the cleat on the block. It works pretty well, but I am going to try the Jay Miles recommended method (in Tom's post below) next time we are out and it's that breezy. The problem with the cleat is when you need to make a lot of tacks (i.e. S.F. city front, or approaching a pack near the weather mark), you always need to grind the sheet out of the cleat. The other downside is that we have two sets of genoa ratchet blocks on board. (The owner of the boat I race on saw this block setup on Ken Kaan's boat at the '97 Nationals in Ventura.)

In any case, when the breeze is up, and the water is bumpy (I'm talking open ocean with breeze, not lake or protected bay with breeze), it can get sketchy standing up on the low side pulling the genoa in as the boat is slamming over waves, which is another reason why I'm going to try the Jay Miles top end of the genoa technique.

Butts and Tom
I also recall reading an article by either Paul Foerster or a member of his crew in the class magazine that had photos. Jay's email to you sounds like some of what was in the article (standing up to leeward and pulling straight up from the ratchet block), except that Paul also used this technique to sheet to the secondaries.
Good luck finding the article! _____(\_(\_(\__(\_(\_(\(\_____(\_________________(\(\____(\________

I asked the same question in an e-mail to Jay Miles. Here's what he wrote back:

There are two techniques you should learn.
The first for light to light/med air (say up to 10-12) should be standing up to leeward and pulling straight up from the ratchet block. Use this technique when you need a big roll tack to get the boat from one tack to the other. As soon as the sheet generates too much load or the boat starts healing too much after the tacks go to technique two which follows.

Go straight to the winch to tack takes practice. Once you get the technique down it becomes quite easy even up to the upper ranges of the genoa (as long as the skipper doesn't over turn the boat). Stand in the cock pit facing forward. You should have 2-3 wraps on the loaded winch and no pre raps on the new winch. Hold the new sheet in the hand that is to leeward so it's cross arm. As the boat gets head to wind, cast off the old sheet and uncross your hand going 1/2 wrap around the new winch while sitting on what will be the new leeward side. So, your sitting, facing the new windward side with 1/2 a wrap around the winch....pull like hell! As soon as you get to the resistance point, lean in and put another wrap on the winch. You'll know have 1 and 1/2 wraps on the winch and you should be just inside the life line or tight up against the life line. Put a foot up on the side of the cockpit for maximum leverage and give on last pull with all your might, it will come in more (unless it's blowing 18). As soon as you think you've got all you can get just up to the rail. On your way up put another wrap on and tail as the skipper grinds the last four-five inches.

Go practice before your next race. Practice with slow turning tacks and speed them up as the technique gets learned. Good Luck!

Jay

Butts up in Buffalo
I have witnessed a number of differing techniques with varying degrees of success. The one that surfaced here on the Texas Circuit a number of years ago is cross sheeting to the cabintop secondaries (most of the boats on the circuit now use this technique). A brief description of the process: When on starboard tack the trimmer stays on the rail with the port genoa sheet crossheeted to the starboard secondary. The trimmer ( generally also known as the big guy/gal )can help roll the boat into a tack by first leaning in then out. Simultaneously releasing the lazy sheet as the boat passes head to wind. The trimmer can stay on the now Leeward side (depending on the wind velocity) and trim the starboard sheet directly at the Ratchet block. When trimmed the trimmer can use the acute angle of the sheet through the ratchet to hold the load of the genoa, while quickly ducking the boom and stepping to the Windward(port) side of the boat and putting a few wraps on the Port side secondary. The technique varies with wind speed and at lower wind speeds enables a roll tack, while at higher wind speeds, the trimmer does not have to lean in near as far. The technique may require you to put some riser pads under the secondaries to ensure a fair lead is possible from the ratchet block (so the sheet won't rub on the companionway).
Good luck and best regards!

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As I head into the next sailing season, I'm reviewing last year's results and visualizing(okay, dreaming) of ways to improve them. One of my difficulties last year was getting my rather large trimmer to get up onto the high side... and cross sheet. He won't budge (in more than one way!) This is a real problem in anything over 5 knots for us.

I'm looking for precise descriptions of successful cross sheeting. Positioning during and after the tack, how to manage in heavier air with the genoa (two people on it?)... basically, where is everyone and what are they doing throughout the tack? What works for you?